swbookclub | Chaos Rising Part 2

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Chaos Rising Part 2

Welcome to our second of four check-in and discussion posts for our Book of the Month.

This month’s book is Chaos Rising by Timothy Zahn
Part 2: Memories V - Chapter 12

Chaos Rising Part 2

1. Why are Ar'alani and Ba'kif so willing to go to bat for Thrawn? Do they hold similar views as him on the importance of gathering intel and engaging/assisting other societies within the Chaos or is it more personal in nature?

2. What are your thoughts on Thalias, the former sky-walker turned caregiver (turned 'fake hostage')?

3. What do you make of General Yiv and Thrawn's interaction. What did they each learn about one another? What did we learn about them?

4. Is Thrawn aware that Qilori is in league with General Yiv?

5. Other thoughts?

FYI - There's no need to answer all (or any) of the questions above - they're just talking points to get us started. Informal chatter is more than welcome! In-person book clubs often veer off topic, it's okay if we do as well. :)
All I ask is that you try to avoid spoilers for things past Part II of the book.

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1. I'm interested in finding out how their relationships with Thrawn evolve. I think it began as them being impressed with his observation skills and the way he was able to glean so much information about a people from their art. But I also get the sense that both Ba'Kif and especially Ar'alani also feel the isolationist policy isn't a good long-term one.

2. I find it interesting that she originally came on board because she's still fascinated with Thrawn and somehow she ends up going along with his recon mission. I feel bad for Cher'i though.

3. That was a fascinating scene and General Yiv actually reminds me a lot of Thrawn. Both are rather formidable adversaries to have to go up against.

4. I'm pretty sure Thrawn is aware or at least suspected. And after Qilori's last comment to the Captain where he interjected an opinion (when largely navigators do not interfere) and his reference to 'General Yiv the Benefactor' - I'm pretty sure others know, too.

5. I'm enjoying this very much and it was hard to not continue reading past this part - LOL. I want to know what happens next!

5. It was hard for me too! I'm doing another DW comm readalong this month and switching back to that was the only way I kept from burning through the rest of this book. XD

Ha - yes, having something to distract is helpful!

2. I wouldn't feel too bad for Cher'i - compared to the previous minders Cher'i's had, I think that Thalias is making a strong argument for recruiting former skywalkers as minders.

3. Yiv has no eye for good weaving, though ;)

1. I haven't figured Ba'kif out yet-- if he showed up in any of the other books, I don't remember it. He's the one who identified Thrawn to get him adopted into the Mitth family in the first Memory section, but when we're introduced to him he's no longer part of any family himself-- I assume he was a Mitth before attaining a high enough military rank to be removed from his family like Ar'alani was? I wonder how he came across Thrawn in the first place, and what it was that made him see Thrawn as a valuable resource. He seems almost like he's treating Thrawn as a pet tactician, like he's a secret weapon being kept in reserve because he might give Ba'kif (or the whole Ascendancy? The military?) an edge at some future point.

Ar'alani, I think, because Thrawn has shown her what he can do with his own particular brand of analysis, and she's seen it play out often enough that she trusts his instincts even if they're inconvenient. After reading this week's section I'm low-key shipping them in a friendly kind of way? Which is weird af to me because my brain grew up with a pretty aromantic view of Thrawn in Legends. Maybe because in Legends we never got his POV in anything he appeared in, but in modern canon we get a lot more insight into his actual thinking, which lends itself to better understanding his interpersonal relationships? Something like that.

2. I really like her. It's clear that being a sky-walker traumatized her in some ways that she's still working through, but she tries to use that to be considerate of Che'ri and do her best in that job. (While also juggling her... attraction? to Thrawn? She keeps trying to get closer to him and as near as I can tell at the moment it's just "because he was nice to me when I was under a lot of stress as a kid." I wonder if she'll get to have the conversation about that later that she seems to really be pursuing.) I know Star Wars doesn't really do ~therapy~ but I really want all the sky-walkers and former sky-walkers to get a lot of it.

3. I really did not expect General Yiv to be as clever as he was, or to start verbally sparring with Thrawn, given what we'd seen of him so far... but if he's out here masterminding plans like the one to attack the Chiss homeworld to distract from his conquering of other parts of the Chaos, then I guess it's not unexpected? He seems almost like a proto-Grand Admiral Thrawn from the early 1990's Thrawn Trilogy-- I wonder if Zahn is going to crib any Grand Admiral Thrawn stuff from that era to stick in here, either as a callback or Easter egg or just for fun.

4. Absolutely, otherwise he wouldn't be feeding false information to him in order to make sure it gets back to Yiv. He may not know exactly how deep the relationship goes between Qilori and Yiv (is Qilori an asset or an agent? willing or unwilling?), but he absolutely knows one is there. In that particular scene, I was honestly more afraid that Yiv would suspect Qilori was working for/with Thrawn and knew the information he was passing along was false, and would then be killed for it. That was kind of the vibe I got when Qilori told him about the "hostage" thing, but then Yiv immediately dismissed it (I did not expect him to see through it that quickly) so maybe Yiv isn't worried about Qilori being a double agent? Yiv's whole vibe is weird to me, I don't have a good handle on him yet.

5. So far we have at least three different kinds of named navigator-- Void Guides, Pathfinders, and Vector One. Do all (or a significant portion of) space-faring nations in the Chaos have Force-sensitive navigators? All throughout the first half of the book I've been wondering if the Navigator's Guild has some kind of crime fraud exception for their confidentiality but it seems not-- and that the Navigator's Guild has no idea that Qilori (and presumably others, unless we find out he's the only one who's been doing this) is breaking that confidentiality for Yiv.

Edited (spellign) 2022-02-13 19:32 (UTC)

1. I didn't think Ba'kif was of the same family, but it seems once someone is promoted high enough they lose their family name? IDK, I'm still wrapping my head around all the politics/family-ties.

I think Ar'alani makes sense for low-key shipping, I get a largely platonic vibe with just a small smidgen of affection. She seems drawn to him for his mind more than anything. He seems to respect her as far as I can tell.

2. I know Star Wars doesn't really do ~therapy~ but I really want all the sky-walkers and former sky-walkers to get a lot of it.
Me too!

3. I was impressed with how non-cardboard Yiv is becoming. So many times villains can just be generic bad guys and the "interesting" parts are just how twisted they are.

5. It may be that unless a nation is very small and can move people/resources between its colonies using the jump-by-jump method, every interstellar polity in the Chaos region has to have some kind of force-sensitive navigator simply to be able to form a cohesive nation with a centralised government?

1. Given the encounters that we've seen between syndics and Ar'alani/Ba'kif, one of the things I'm wondering is if Ba'kif doesn't agree with the Ascendancy policy of non-intervention and only attacking in response to an attack. If so, I'm not sure whether it'd be because that policy limits options, or because it prevents an aggressive expansion of the Ascendancy, but I've been pondering it. For Ar'alani, I think it's more personal - I think she respects Thrawn's abilities and insights.

2. I'm hoping we'll get more from Thalia's point of view as the story goes on. She and Thrawn haven't really had an opportunity to talk much, and I'm hoping that they'll turn out to be friends. It feels a bit like Thalia's been motivated by the fact that Thrawn actually treated her as if she wasn't simply a resource, but I also think that Thalias is looking for some kind of purpose. I don't know if Thrawn is someone who can have friends, or someone who looks at other people as tools, or something else completely, but I'm interested to see what happens.

3. I think we learned that Yiv is clever, but also rather used to believing he's the smartest person in the room. I think Thrawn was deliberately poking Yiv, and I'm not sure if he managed to succeed with sowing doubt in Yiv's mind, but their encounter was fun to read, and I want to see more.

4. If Thrawn's as smart as he comes across as being, then I think he has to know that at least some of the navigators or equivalent have to be working with Yiv, or at least, working for him; whether he suspects Qilori personally or not, I don't know, but I'd not be in any way surprised if it turns out that Thrawn has studied Qilori's species and knows the 19 different tells that show one is lying/nervous/agitated.

5. I'm enjoying this novel a lot so far. I'm a bit worried that Thrawn will turn out to be too faultless and incapable of making a mistake for me, but the investigations, politics and empire-building going on are all great fun to read.

1. I think Ba'kif is aware that the isolationist policy limits the ability of the military to maintain defense of the Ascendancy in the Chaos. Having allies, and coming to their aid, isn't only "making friends", it's a huge defensive tactic that the Ascendancy seems to largely ignore. Although they do have ambassadors, which is confusing because why bother if you're not going to actually make allies.

3. Their encounter was SO FUN to read - agreed!

5. I suspect he'll make some mistakes and I wonder if they might be related to Thalia or possibly Ar'alani and Ba'Kif. Also, something moves him towards the Empire. IDK - in any case, it'll be interesting to find out.

3. I think I like that Yiv was (almost?) immune to Thrawn's trick. It's good to see that Thrawn's plans don't always succeed the way he wants them to. And Yiv will be a good adversary! I have the feeling he might stick around through the next two books?

Just a few quick notes from me this week! It's been a busy one.

1. Why are Ar'alani and Ba'kif so willing to go to bat for Thrawn? Do they hold similar views as him on the importance of gathering intel and engaging/assisting other societies within the Chaos or is it more personal in nature?

With Ar'alani, at least some of it has to be personal investment, which is why I love the "Memories" sections. Does Ba'kif see himself as Thrawn's mentor/patron? I think they also both see the fault in the Chiss's isolationist policy -- which will absolutely be a factor, at least from what Yiv says later in the section.

2. What are your thoughts on Thalias, the former sky-walker turned caregiver (turned 'fake hostage')?

I think she's such an interesting character! She helps develop the idea of the sky-walkers, and as someone outside of the political/social structure of the other characters, she helps us understand the dynamics between the other characters.

I'm really enjoying her growing relationship with Thrawn. They are unlikely partners but it works. And it's an interesting contrast to her relationship with Cher'i.

3. What do you make of General Yiv and Thrawn's interaction. What did they each learn about one another? What did we learn about them?

This scene was great--it was good to see Thrawn sparing with an alien opponent. Obviously Thrawn learned something with Yiv's analysis of the tapestry, and the beefeater creature, but I can no better anticipate his moves than any of the characters ;)

4. Is Thrawn aware that Qilori is in league with General Yiv?

I'd think so, especially by the end of the section.

5. Other thoughts?

This section of the book is clearly setting us up for some really interesting things to come -- it was hard to stop reading!

1. The 'Memories' sections are interesting and add so much to the story. I am glad they are clearly denoted as being different though, because some of the transitions flow a little too well for me to tell which is "current" and which is "past" without it. (LOL)

2. I'm looking forward to more interaction between Thrawn and Thalia to see what happens. I also hope she reunites with Cher'i.

There's so much to keep track of with this book! I think I'm holding my head above water, but I'm glad that the Memories sections are so obviously delineated, too :D

I really hope she reunites with Cher'i. I'm worried about the new caregiver! That just seems like bad news. :/

1. I think they both realise that in order for the Ascendancy to grow and survive things need to change and Thrawn has the potential answers. Sticking to themselves isn’t going to work when a much larger coalition comes along, eventually they will be overrun.
My hope is that they aren’t planning a Coup to overthrow the government though!

2. I like her, in fact I like how personable everyone is in this novel. They all have distinct personalities so even with the confusing names I can keep up with who is who.
By the end of the book I want her to have more direction though, it’s ok to want to see what Thrawn is up to but I want her own goals to be apparent too.

3. When Yiv was first introduced I was worried he was going to be a standard arrogant warlord so it’s cool that isn’t the case and will be a worthy adversary.

4. I think Thrawn has had a general distrust of him since even the memories section, he’s definitely caught on that he’s involved.

2. Zahn is so good at developing characters, I agree! But I also agree that Thalias should have her own path, independent from Thrawn's. Let's hope...

Speaking of a larger coalition... a coup to overthrow the government might be underway or thwarted when the Empire eventually steps in? I don't really know how Thrawn ends up an Imperial General though, so I'm only guessing.

I suspect we'll find out more about Thalia's ambitions and motivations because those things are rather vague right now. But that could just be me wanting the same thing you mention ;)

I agree, Yiv seems more interesting than I expected.

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Chaos Rising Part 2

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