Chaos Rising Part 4

[colls]

Welcome to our last of four check-in and discussion posts for our Book of the Month.

This month’s book is Chaos Rising by Timothy Zahn
Part 4: Memories XI - Chapter 23

Chaos Rising Part 4

1. Did the climatic battle go as you'd envisioned? What surprised you?

2. What are your thoughts on the varying alliances (or friendships, although friendship seems a strong word for a Chiss) between characters, like Ar'alani and Thrawn, or Thalia and Che'ri, or Thurian and the other Aristocra?

3. Did you expect Qilori to survive and any thoughts on who Jixtus could be?

4. What do you think is in store for the remainder of the trilogy?



FYI - There's no need to answer all (or any) of the questions above - they're just talking points to get us started. Informal chatter is more than welcome! In-person book clubs often veer off topic, it's okay if we do as well. :)

Comments

[colls]

1. I honestly didn't follow all the political and tactical motivations for how everyone would act - it seemed like an intricate plan and I didn't have it in me for political military machinations just now what with the state of the world. I DID find Thrawn's arrogance (offered here more as a calm confidence) to be on brand, along with Yiv's eruption into anger. I was disappointed but not surprised that part of the plan was to sacrifice Vaks aid ships.

2. The exchange between Thalia and Che'ri as they were taking the ship back to Vaks felt like it was laying the foundation for their bond to be tested in the future.

3. Probably part of my not paying close enough attention during some of the battle bits, but honestly thought Qilori was dead. Then again, I tend to assume characters are going to die. Heh. No clue who Jixtus is, could he be Count Dooku or some other Palpatine apprentice?

4. Thrawn is certainly an interesting character and I am quite enjoying getting more of his back story. I hope we get a better understanding of HOW he's so bad at politics though - because I feel like that's a setup to explain why something coming up goes awry. Maybe it's because he doesn't understand personal motivations that differ from his own?

[astromech1138]

The exchange between Thalia and Che'ri as they were taking the ship back to Vaks felt like it was laying the foundation for their bond to be tested in the future.

I hadn't even thought of this but I think you're probably right! Hopefully whatever happens doesn't break their bond.

[astromech1138]

1. Did the climatic battle go as you'd envisioned? What surprised you?

I appreciate that Zahn doesn't write a battle you can anticipate. I was honestly worried that Thalia and Che'ri were going to lose their lives (really, villains should do more, talk less ;) and didn't expect that part of the plan was to put the sleepwalking gas in their makeup. Zahn's battles are really a game of chess, which fits Thrawn's character perfectly.

2. What are your thoughts on the varying alliances (or friendships, although friendship seems a strong word for a Chiss) between characters, like Ar'alani and Thrawn, or Thalia and Che'ri, or Thurian and the other Aristocra?

I loved Ar'alani's relationship with Thrawn, especially how he talks about how she is good at things he isn't. They work well together, and it's a good thing for his character to see him working with someone as an equal. (I'd like to get more of her own actions/decisions, though.) And I loved Thalia and Che'ri's relationship; its turn after Che'ri gets more confidence once she learns to fly was unexpected but welcome.

3. Did you expect Qilori to survive and any thoughts on who Jixtus could be?

I was surprised that Qilori made it; I wasn't sure exactly what was happening with Thrawn's shuttle and Yiv's dreadnaught. I have no idea who Jixtus could be--something from the Chaos? The Emperor?

4. What do you think is in store for the remainder of the trilogy?

I'm looking forward to seeing how the relationships between Ar'alani and Thrawn, Thrawn and Thalia, and Thalia and Che'ri develop. I'm expecting that at some point Thrawn is going to be thrown out of the Ascendancy: are they thrown out with him? Do they stand against him?

Really loved this one! And (eventually) I will be reading the rest of the trilogy.

[colls]

I was surprised that Qilori made it
I'm glad I wasn't the only one surprised. I thought I just hadn't been paying close enough attention. :)


I enjoyed this as well and hope to (eventually) read the rest, too!

[barbiejedi]

1. I was surprised by the makeup being a backup way to smuggle the knockout gas in-- when it was first introduced, I assumed it was just to disguise Thalias' face so she wouldn't be recognized.

3. I definitely didn't expect him to survive-- he's filling the niche of one of those characters I keep expecting to die to make the villain seem more heartless/cruel by eliminating an underling/cooperator who has outlived their usefulness. His continued survival has me guessing every time.

4. I actually started the second book the day after I finished this one, and have already made it a significant way through the third book. I've always enjoyed reading Zahn's stuff, so it seems like it flies by quickly.


It was partway through the second book (though based on the events of this one, in Memory XII when it's revealed what his big mistake with the Garwian was) when I really figured out how bad of a Chiss Thrawn is-- he keeps making decisions that are WAY beyond his pay grade (like the decision to break the non-intervention policy to help the Garwian) and it was only in Memory XII that we see him start to grasp that doing so doesn't always turn out the way he wants it to-- that he can be used, too. I don't see any evidence that he's going to learn to stay in his lane, though. He wouldn't be much of a protagonist if he did.

The more I read in this trilogy the more I think Thurfian's got the right idea.

[brokenmnemonic]

What did you think of the second book? The third book was on sale on Amazon so I've grabbed a copy, but I'm arguing with myself about whether I can wait for book 2 to go on sale or not...

[barbiejedi]

I liked it, but I've been reading Zahn's Thrawn novels for more than twenty years now so it would take a LOT for me not to like it.

I definitely recommend it for the aforementioned realization of what a Bad Chiss Thrawn is-- like, as a representative of his species he is very much an outlier and Not What The Culture Aspires To Be. The mystery of the second one is pretty solid and quite satisfying once all the pieces line up. I sorted of stalled on the third book for IRL reasons, but am getting back to it now.

[colls]

Thrawn does seem like a bad Chiss, I am hoping to get more of why he seems so bad at politics though. Does it seem like he simply doesn't stay in his lane? Or that he truly doesn't see the political maneuverings? I wonder if he doesn't see Chiss politics only - like it's his blind spot - because it's his own society and he's too close to knowing the art (or something along those lines).

The more I read in this trilogy the more I think Thurfian's got the right idea.
I'm already leaning that way with this one book - LOL! (although I admit that's mostly my bias from watching him in Rebels)

[barbiejedi]

Or that he truly doesn't see the political maneuverings?

My difficulty with this is that over the course of the trilogy, I feel like the reader has been told Thrawn doesn't see the political maneuverings, but not as frequently shown a failure due to that blindness... except for the aforementioned bit where the Garwian tried to manipulate him into running tactics for them in Memory XII. Mostly it's just characters going "well gosh he sure doesn't see politics! that sure is bad for him!" but we rarely see it affect his effectiveness in a meaningful way. This is addressed in-text more in the second book, which I appreciated a lot, but I still wish we'd seen Thrawn struggle with it on the page too.

There are actually several things I wish we'd seen more of on the page rather than just having characters talk about it afterwords, but if I'd gotten everything I wanted this would've been a pentalogy. XD

[kittywhite]

1. There were a lot of twists and turns, I’m glad it was explained better at the dinner table later.

2. I was beginning to think that Thrawn was softening a bit but his comment about aliens as assets makes me think he’s always going to view people as disposable if it furthers the greater plan.

3. I wish that slimy character got blown to pieces but looks like he’s sticking around to be a thorn in Thrawn’s side. I think Jixtus will end up being the real villain of the trilogy, he was probably hanging back to gauge the strength of the Chiss and let Yiv take all the damage.

4. The reveal of Jixtus, more threats to Chiss security and Thrawn’s eventual exile (that he totally set up because he always has a plan)

[colls]

2. I was beginning to think that Thrawn was softening a bit but his comment about aliens as assets makes me think he’s always going to view people as disposable if it furthers the greater plan.
I don't want to relate to Thrawn, which is probably why I resisted reading some of the new Thrawn material in recent years. This portrayal of him has me teetering on the edge because you can see his point here, even if you know he later takes it in a direction you'd disagree with. And then moments like the 'aliens as assets' comes around and you feel vindicated in knowing he becomes such a high ranking Imperial imposing the Emperor's will on the galaxy.

3. Same. But then, you have a point about being a thorn in Thrawn's side - then again, I suspect he's more of a pawn to Thrawn than a thorn.

[brokenmnemonic]

1. I was expecting hijinks in the final battle, but I think the thing I liked most about it was that Ar'alani was the one who understood the significance of the Vaks pattern of thought and was enable to manipulate them into attacking Yiv's forces. Throughout the book, Thrawn's early memories and dealings with Ar'alani have generally involved him teaching her things, but this battle was a nice callback to their battle with sticks, where she managed to surprise him at one point by changing tactics. I'm glad it didn't turn out that was also a cunning part of Thrawn's master plan, because it shows that Ar'alani is clever and adaptable too. The anaesthetic gas in the elaborate makeup was a surprise too, and I'm debating whether Thrawn had always planned to use the makeup in that way, or if it was something that came up after Thalia had first appeared wearing it.

2. I liked the friendship between Thalia and Che'ri, but it was based on Thalia being an adult and Che'ri being both a child and, effectively, her ward. Che'ri seems to be noticeably less childlike after an extended period on her own with Thrawn, and it'll be interesting to see how that affects her relationship with Thalia. Ar'alani and Thrawn seem the two characters closest to having an actual friendship, but at the same time, I'm uncertain if Thrawn actually understands friendship as a concept. I think there's a mutal respect between the two of them, but I think Thrawn is someone who also wouldn't notice if he didn't have any actual friends.

3. I wasn't sure if Qilori would survive, but it looks like he's set for a more actively villainous role. I wasn't sure originally how much his complicity was down to a mix of cowardice and necessity, but it looks like he'll be taking a more active part in the plans to destroy the Ascendancy. As for Jixtus... I'm hoping he's something or someone new, and unrelated to Palpatine and the Sith.

4. I think the next book will feature Thrawn learning that Jixtus exists and is threatening the Ascendancy (probably in some way only Thrawn can appreciate) and that the third book will involve Thrawn defeating Jixtus in some way that allows his political enemies to exile him. I think what I'm hoping it doesn't involve is Thalia turning people like Ar'alani into disposable assets as part of some kind of plot intended to show that he was always a villain at heart.

[barbiejedi]

3. Qilori's continued survival always sets me on edge, because he seems like the kind of person that a lot of different characters in the series would have multiple reasons to want eliminated, and yet he keeps turning up at all these important spots. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop with him.

[colls]

1. I did like that Ar'alani brought some brains to the operation and that it wasn't all just Thrawn.

4. I suspect you're right about Jixtus being some sort of threat only Thrawn will initially appreciate.